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tv   Alex Wagner Tonight  MSNBC  February 21, 2024 6:00pm-7:00pm PST

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law, and alabama state constitutional law. so there may be a very limited path here. of course, this is going back to the lower court in alabama to determine whether or not the clinic is liable. but the seeds of this were already planted at the supreme court with the dobbs opinion, with justice alito writing that opinion, removing the question of abortion from the boards and sending it back to the states. i just want to emphasize for your listeners, you know, the court is up on the ballot and this election cycle. justice alito is in the 70s, justice thomas is in his 70s. if the republican president is elected they will be replaced by probably teenagers who will be on this court for another generation and a half. and is conservative supermajority will literally rule forever. >> the court is on the ballot. and they are not very popular, i think that we can all say that every poll tells us that. thank you both so much for everything you are doing out there and for explaining this case to all of us. that does it for me tonight. alex wagner tonight starts
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right now. hi alex. >> hello, my friend. you know what always shocks the conscience? beyond this principle and stakes here. the reality that republican families use ivf. republican women often have to have abortions. this crosses partisan lines. and if anyone thinks that this is going to be neatly divided between left and right, men are they wrong. >> it certainly -- it is the opposite of that. the majority of people in this country probably support ivf. i have not seen data on this, but they do support a woman's right to choose. this is not a clear partisan issue at all. >> thank you, my friend, as always, it is lovely to see you throughout the week. thank you to you at home for joining me this hour. so, one of fox news's biggest stories just blew up in its face. >> this confidential human sources, if you are watching other networks you will not hear the stories. if you are just watching fox for the first time, we will
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tell you what is happening in these stories. the media has been ignoring us. >> a guy with impeccable credentials, a great track record, reported that joe biden took a 5 million dollar bribe right under barack obama's nose. >> the allegation was gigantic and fox news ran with it. they calculated fox mentioned biden in the context of a bribe, or bribery more than 2600 times. in the past year. media matters, sean hannity alone devoting at least 85 segments to this supposed scandal and the same time frame. republicans in the house launched an entire impeachment inquiry around this claim. years worth of republican mud slinging has been based on one allegation detailed on an fbi form called 10:23 from one confidential human sources.
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>> we have now the ft 23. it is the fbi report that was prepared and 2020. the rays allegations that joe biden was vice president personally receiving bribes. this is damning. >> even interested fbi enforcement has alleged a bribe to the biden family. >> the most corroborative evidence we have is that highly credible human source. >> the most corroborating avoidance we have is from this highly credible confidential human sources. last week the justice department arrested that confidential human sources. his name is alexander smirnoff and he is now being indicted on two counts of lying to the fbi. specifically about providing false derogatory information to the fbi, about joe biden and his son, hunter biden.
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that alone is devastating to the narrative of fox news and the republican party. countless hours of tv accusations, and smear campaigns, and an entire congressional impeachment inquiry, all based on what the justice department now says realize. this story does not end there. it gets so much worse. because according to a new pretrial filing from the department of justice, when this confidential source, alexander smirnoff, was interrogated after his arrest last week he told the fbi that he's been getting his information from russian intelligence officers. so to recap quickly, the basis of the republican impeachment investigation against president biden, and a year's worth of one of fox news's biggest anti biden stories were just lies from a guy that the department of justice now claims is a russian intelligence asset. according to the justice department, he was arrested
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last week, and smirnoff's plan was to keep poisoning our nation's political well, with more lights pass to him by the russian government. spirit of suffers to spread misinformation about a candidate of one of the major parties and the united states continues, that candidate would beat joe biden. spinoff is actively peddling new lies that could impact u.s. elections after meeting with russian intelligence officials in november. that is election interference. if what the department of justice is alleging here is true, the russian government is actively interfering in the 2024 election to try to help donald trump get elected. and russia potentially played republican elected officials, and fox news, like a fiddle in order to do so. when makes all of this all the more alarming is that this is not the first time that this has happened. these are photos of
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rudy giuliani, then trump's personal attorney with his main source, when he made corruption allegations against joe and hunter biden before the 2020 election. the guy's name is andriy dirt caught, and in 2020 the u.s. treasury department sanctioned mr. derkach. the department put him on a list of russia linked election interference actors, and said that he had been an active russian agent for over a decade. this was not joe biden's treasury department, this was donald trump's. this was secretary of the treasury, steve mnuchin. from late 2019 to mid 2020, derkach raised a covert influence campaign centered on cultivating false and unsubstantiated narratives concerning u.s. officials. again, that would be joe biden, in the upcoming 2020 presidential election. hurkacz's unsubstantiated narratives were pushed in western media.
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steve mnuchin's treasury department described it as foreign interference in an attempt to undermine the upcoming 2020 u.s. presidential election. so in 2020, the mark was rudy giuliani. in 2024, it looks like it is congressman jim jordan. and james comer. twice now republicans have become winning, or unwitting useful idiots. spreading lies about joe biden to hurt his chances in the presidential election. never minding what happens to this country in the process. joining me now is new york congressman, dan goldman, member of the house oversight committee. he served as the counsel in the first impeachment of donald trump. congressman, thank you for being here. i would first like to get your assessment of how much this reporting has dimmed the republican forever to impeach the president. or just how much it has landed among your fellow colleagues on the hill.
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>> i think many of my colleagues on the democratic side are shocked but not surprised. because it is once again, every election it seems, the republicans fall in favor with the russians and aren't used either as you said, willingly or unwillingly, by russian intelligence to try to interfere in the election. you will remember in 2016, donald trump says that russia, if you are listening, find hillary clinton's emails, five hours later they search for them and fish them and hack them and got them. the mueller report said that paul manafort, the campaign chairman for donald trump's 2016 campaign was providing internal information to a russian intelligence agent. and at the campaign was welcoming the russian interference. now we learn that there is a whole new scheme from 2020, to
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originally, i suspect, to interfere in the 2020 election in favor of donald trump. which is when this confidential source provided this information to the fbi. it is now coming out in 2024, because as you point out correctly, republican members of congress are once again waiting, or unwitting agents of russian intelligence. peddling a false narrative that is russian disinformation in an effort to interfere in the election and boost donald trump. it is shocking, it is shocking that eight years later we are still dealing with russian interference in the republican party, and it is still welcoming it and facilitating it. >> i guess i wonder if you think that they care. on the one hand you think after years and years of this, republicans would be somewhat skeptical when given a piece of
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information that conveniently undermines the presidential campaign efforts. it sort of seems like if it is a means to republican ends, which is to get trump back into power or to keep power themselves, who cares about the information or disinformation. do you think that it matters to them that they may be unwittingly being employed by the fsb to suit russia's agenda? >> i don't, i've been dealing with it for this entire congress, the entire weaponization subcommittee that jim jordan runs is designed to undermine enforcement against disinformation that could interfere with our elections. that is the whole purpose of that committee, to have a chilling effect on law enforcement or other government agencies that are trying to stop russian interference. this is their m.o.. they will do whatever they can. and they knew that this was false. this was fully debunked in the
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impeachment investigation that i lead in 2019 by witness after witness who was in ukraine at the time. or was in the state department or the national security council. these were trump administration officials who all said that what joe biden did related to the prosecutor general in ukraine, was consistent with official u.s. policy in all of the western world, and that it was bad for hunter biden's company. yet they get this uncorroborated, 10:23 form from the fbi, and they hold it up as the best example, the best evidence that they have. but i will tell you that one way they may be chilled, that is now that they know that this information was funneled through russian intelligence, through the fbi by russian intelligence, and is part of a russian disinformation scheme to interfere in our election, if they continue with this investigation, they are opening themselves up to a criminal
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investigation for conspiring with russia to interfere in the election. and that may be the only thing that keeps them from going forward. >> let me follow up on that, do you think that there is an appetite inside of the department of justice to look into this on that level? >> i don't know. david weiss, the special counsel, is the one who pursued this case against the confidential source. you will recall this information was provided by bill barr, to a u.s. attorney in pittsburgh, to evaluate it. he then passed it over to special counsel whites, who is the one handling the hunter biden investigation. now we see that the special counsel weiss, fully investigated this, and if mr. smirnoff is reminded, and is being appealed right now, ultimately if he cooperates, who knows where this may lead.
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he may have a lot more information and i suspect the special counsel will just follow the evidence wherever it leads. but there is no question now they know. they know that this is russian intelligence disinformation that is designed to interfere in our election. if they continue with this investigation, that helps russia do just that, that is conspiracy to interfere in our election. >> just permit me a moment to absorb the potential irony of the situation here. what is being turned, the investigation into hunter biden that has yet to turn, there are people who have various assessments for the merits of all of that. but that can make a u-turn and come right back to end up investigating the very republicans who have been so the listen interested in prosecuting hunter biden. is that what you are saying here? >> yes. and it goes even further than
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that, because there are house republicans have taken responsibility, and honor in their effort to interfere in hunter biden's criminal case and to blow up the plea agreement. the only reason that this investigation is continuing, or at least one significant reason is because the plea agreement fell through. so yes, the irony is if this investigation ultimately continued only because of their efforts to interfere in it, and that it comes back on to them, we are far away from that point, i do not want to make any assumptions or speculation that there is any evidence of criminal wrongdoing. the point that i am trying to make is that we now know there is a plausible claim that they didn't know this was russian intelligence information. i would like to know whether they did or didn't. i hope that special counsel whites does do that investigation. but regardless, right now they know, if they continue to push forward with what is russian
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intelligence disinformation clearly designed to help donald trump in this upcoming election, then they are complicit in spreading that disinformation. >> congressman dan goldman, hunter biden returns to the hill, i believe next week he testifies behind closed doors at the house oversight committee. we will be checking in with you again soon. thank you for your time tonight, sir. >> thank you. >> coming up, testicle kicking, chair slamming, and a broken rib. one key battleground state has taken on the characteristics of a bar brawl. can democrats take advantage before a pint glass hits them in the face? but first, donald trump warps reality by telling fox news viewers that he didn't actually have to hand over the classified documents that he had down at mar-a-lago. as his lawyers mount a kitchen sink defense, and what else to delay his trial. the latest on trump's legal woes, coming up next.
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>> i mean they requested them, you could've just handed them over. save yourself a lot of trouble. >> first of all, i didn't have to hand them over, second of all, i would've done that. we were talking, and all of a sudden they raided mar-a-lago. you remember, they said could you put an extra lock on the door? we showed them where they were! we showed them. >> this week, donald trump sat down with fox news on asserted that he did not have to hand over the classified documents that were squirrel the way at mar-a-lago. which is wrong. and was also illegal. and now, trump's legal team is throwing the kitchen sink at the judge in this case, in an effort to delay it from going to trial before the election, and maybe forever. in a midnight filing last night, trump's lawyer said that they plan to methodically challenge every facet of the special counsel, jack smith's case, including claiming presidential immunity, asking for that
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somewhere before. despite the fact that trump was not actually president when any of this happened. joining me now to discuss all of this is former fbi general counsel, andrew weissmann, and former federal prosecutor, -- thank you both for being here. andrew, first of all, in my living in the twilight zone, in worrying that we are going to see -- we have this whole presidential immunity saga playing out in the federal election interference case. is it possible, that we will have another presidential immunity defense playing out in the florida courts and the florida district appeals courts? >> it is possible that donald trump will raise it there, but for the obvious reason that he was not president when this happened, it is that is really a loser, with a judge who many think not only has her thumb on the scale, but her hand, her for arm, her heart, as you can
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tell, i think that is what is going on. but even she, i do not think is going to go down that route. she has many, many ways to continue delaying this case. and what she is doing now is just really a question of essentially having a -- by not scheduling the trial. i do not think that one of the things that she will do is say that there's presidential immunity. if not because it is just so legally wrong, because she's clearly made legally wrong decisions before, and have been reversed twice. but if you want to get removed from the case -- >> that's a surefire way to do it. >> exactly. she is smart enough to know don't make that mistake. >> we think. i just think that jack smith is teeing up an appeal to the 11th circuit or the higher powers to get judge gannon removed from this case? she made a decision to unseal
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the identities of 24 potential witnesses against the special counsel. the special counsel is now going back and saying you made an error. please we consider this. is this a longer bid to have a paper trail of bad decisions on the part of judge cannon together taken off of the case? >> i think for jack smith and his team, the approximate objective at any given moment is to just have this case moving forward to trial if possible. i don't know what is in his head. if they try to one day get into the court of appeals and have it removed it would be a pretty aggressive move. they are clearly getting frustrated. the decisions that she has been handing down including the very beginning of the special master. now recently with respect to disclosure with the identities of the witnesses are very problematic and understandably frustrating for them. i think that jack smith is right. i think that she did get it on the recent issue that he has ttip concerning the disclosure. i don't know if it would end up there. that would be a very bold move. she's making a lot of steps here that are frustrating.
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>> the special master thing was one issue. this is the unsealing information and the identities of sources that could put their lives in peril. >> i think that this is the kind of issue, i am putting myself in their shoes, it reminds me of the issue of why you had to do a search at mar-a-lago. if you know that there's highly sensitive classified information. you are not thinking about a criminal case. you are thinking about why you are in government. which is to protect the national security. this is similar. if there are witnesses they are going to be disclosed over prematurely, or you commit sully. you have to appeal. this is not one where you say we lost but who cares about the risk. if the risk is just civilians that is why jack smith has an office. that is why that team's career will appeal that. i think the best hope for why
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cannon will reverse herself on this is because she does not want to get put down again. i agree completely that legally she is dead wrong. >> that is humiliating. just to be clear, to have to reverse, it's not like the appeals court says you were wrong. she literally just has to say the thing i decided a month ago, i was wrong, and you are right. >> that does happen but i will say this will be the third time that this has happened as a friend of mine who is a judge said after the first two i am not sure if we got out of bed that morning. it is in the case of this high profile to get it wrong so many times. it is always wrong for trump. it's not like you are even- handed li showing that you are just not ready for primetime. it is just looking very skewed. >> i would love to get your thoughts on what is happening. i think it is a march 1st
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hearing to decide whether the may 20th trial date moves or not. why hasn't she moved it yet? because it seems like that is also creating chaos just given the uncertainty around the federal election interference case. no date has been put on the calendar for that but presumably that is going to happen if it happens, maybe in may or june, aileen cannon is holding this trial date and it seems to be problematic on a number of levels. >> it's not that unusual for judges to hold trial dates and then push them off as they approach. this is a different type of case because it is so high- profile. to share the concerns that people have seems quite parent to me. she doesn't anticipate this before november. which means it could never happen. but trump is reelected so they are on a very tight timeline here. i'm not sure that the mandate is crowding any of the other cases. but i do understand why
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people are anxious to see some sort of real pelland on this case. >> how do you read her, first of all, she makes the decision for pretrial motions. trump actually wants to consolidate all of the emotions into one, i'm really paraphrasing here, and under one document, effectively. she said no, you need to file them individually. which means that smith, and turn, needs to file the response individually. just creating a lot of -- i don't want to say busy work, but a lot more stuff to go through. >> at the very least, it shares enormous inexperience. but it really is saying, by the way, i do not want one consolidated brief addressing everything, i actually want you to take a lot, and a lot of pages to address each thing. i mean, no serious judge has experienced does that. i have a cynical take on the trial date, which is i think judge cannon was trying to use it as a blocker, meaning it was sitting there and it was a day
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that she had said to put restrictions on where other people could move. what i find interesting is that it is so obvious that everyone is like there is no way that that is happening. and i think as judge chutkan, and the new york judge, we are not even going to take it seriously because it is so obvious. >> nobody even talks about potentially even interviewing with the alvin bragg's. >> people are just, like we know that is not happening. and in, fact donald trump's own lawyers have been saying that trial cannot possibly go. so they said that she was trying to use it as a blocker. everyone in the system knows that is not happening. >> when we talk about the political influence, or politics influencing court decisions, i do need to bring up for your thoughts this bizarre series of events that is taking place in arizona. the attorney general of maricopa county, rachel mitchell, is refusing to extradite a man who murdered a woman in a manhattan hotel room
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because she said she can't trust manhattan d.a., alvin bragg, to prosecute the case. this seems like the after effect of the bragg indictment of donald trump, perchance, and i wonder what you make of it in terms of new line in the sand, as it concerns the courts, the prosecutors, and the attorney general on this country. >> i certainly agree that republicans seem to be taking the little swipes and shots at alvin. it is not a good idea, my question for this person, who has made this decision is whether it works both ways. if someone commits a murder in arizona and they go to new york, and they carjack, dissolvent get to say we are holding on to him until we resolve our case? which maybe whenever the new york courts say we don't care about your case, we are not going to extradite this person for you? it sensitive precedent. it is not good for interstate cooperation. and the enforcement of our laws throughout the country. i think that they are able to work something out. >> it is not a good precedent,
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andrew. >> it is the insidious effect of trump and acolytes. just to see this clearly partisan issue affecting something like this. by the way, they need to get their story straight with alvin bragg. it is that he is weak on crime. us bragg's office has said, the murder rate has gone down and they can actually prosecute white collar crime with donald trump, and they can prosecute murder to see somebody do this in law enforcement, it is beyond disheartening. i mean, this is exactly what you are in office not to do. >> yes. breaking the law should be something held as a universal -- breaking the law should be a guidance, prosecuting those who have broken the law, guidance for all attorney general matter what states they reside in. andrew weissmann, and kuch could horry, thank you guys both for joining me. much more ahead this evening,
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including chaos and michigan's republican party, what a year of infighting, with chair summing and a broken ribs. what that means for michigan's republican primary election, next week. but first, a shocking ruling out of alabama, that could effectively and in vitro fertilization in that state, and others. aaron kermanshah is me to discuss that, next. rs to . so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs. these underwear are period-proof. and sneeze-proof. and sweat-proof. they're leakproof underwear, from knix. comfy & confident protection that feel just like normal. with so many styles and colors to choose from, switching is easy at knix.com we all know that words have power. they set things in motion and make us happy or sad. but there's one word that stands out, because when people say it, lives are changed.
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>> okay, try to guess where this is from. even before birth, all human beings bear the image of god, and their lives cannot be destroyed without a facing his glory. if you guessed the bible, you get strong. that statement was written last week by alabama state supreme court justice, tom parker. it was part of his recurring opinion, ruling the frozen embryos of ivf patients should be considered children. and disposing of one can be considered a wrongful death. that decision has sparked confusion, and outrage, and panic among people who really want to be parents, and might need the help of in vitro fertilization to become ones. and not just in alabama. liberty counsel, a conservative christian litigation group has asked the florida supreme court to consider alabama's ivf decision before ruling on a pending ballot measure that
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would codify abortion access in florida. it seems like liberty council might have a supporter on the florida bench. in a hearing earlier this month, florida chief justice, floated the idea of fetal personhood, noting the court hasn't yet taken a position on whether the states constitution protects an unborn child at any stage of pregnancy. joining me now is senior correspondent at new york magazine and coauthor of notorious rbg, the life and times of ruth bader ginsburg. thank you for being here tonight and helping me make sense of this. do you think what we are witnessing in realtime here is potentially the death of ivf and recipes across america much like abortion access? >> certainly looks like it is headed that way in alabama. i want to sit back for a second. in 2011, i went to mississippi to cover a ballot measure in one of the most conservative states, it failed because
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people pointed out that fetal personhood would naturally lead to restricting ivf. and there were enough people in the state who rebelled against that and voted against it. but alabama has been on this track to embrace fetal personhood from the beginning. and they did it in ways that didn't not immediately capture attention the way of permitted class people can afford ivf, who want to be parents, can. so they first started prosecuting pregnant people who use drugs. the alabama state supreme courts and more than ten years ago that you could charge pregnant people with chemical endangerment, and that fetuses were children for the purposes of the law. they separately also said even before roe v. wade, that alabama's constitution protected fetal -- fetuses, and embryos as persons. there is some incoherence here, there was also the state lawmaker in alabama who said one of the abortion bans has been debated, he said this doesn't cover the embryo in the lab, because it is not inside a
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woman. so there's some part of the movement has not quite figured out what it wants to do with respect to ivf, which is enormously popular and helps people build their family regardless of circumstance. but it seems like the wind that has descended right now is the absolute, it's deeply religious language in the concurrence of this fetal personhood above all, that once was considered marginal, has become extremely powerful. so, when it was people who use drugs, or alabama even had somebody, even appointed a lawyer for a fetus when 18 with seeking a judicial bypass for an abortion. so when it was the abortion patient, when it was a drug user, then it was the woman who had the miscarriage, now it is the woman who -- or the family who would like to have more children. it is really a question, fundamentally, of reproductive control that is affecting people in all different circumstances or decisions of pregnancy. >> yes. i would assume that that reality of who this affects, first of all, people that actively want to have children,
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which is not necessarily the case when you are talking about abortion. this is all people who want to procreate. many of them are wealthy, and i'm sure plenty of them are republicans. some of them are not wealthy, but the fact is, when you talk about constituencies, i am having a hard time understanding how this is -- i'm setting aside the morals and ethics here, but politically, how this is advantageous for conservatives to run on? >> it is not unheard of for states to restrict ivf. it was done in italy, it was done in poland under different governments, it is not popular, it didn't last, but theoretically it is possible for this to happen. i think it just needs to be seen in the context of even though it is fundamentally irrational, some people said it is ironic, it is irrational, they are willing to go this far to enshrine into law, they are willing to even prevent babies from being born. in order to prove a point, of ultimately a religious point about the value of a frozen embryo being above the desires of living people on this earth. >> i think according to the
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washington post, at least 11 states have broadly defined personhood beginning at fertilization, and those states include alabama, mississippi, oklahoma, south carolina. do you see what is happening in alabama as a usable template for other states that want to aggressively pursue fetal personhood amendments? >> they certainly would like that to be the case. but alex, you and i have talked before about how deeply unpopular now, in a way that i think that even pro-choice advocates are surprised by how deeply unpopular restricting abortion has been in the states. so i do think, all day i have been getting freaking out text messages from people that i don't usually hear from like is this for real? is this going to stand? it gets people's attention. i think you are right about the politics of this. i think it is a great moment to look at all of the interconnections here between people who are seeing the reproductive freedom restricted, regardless of what kind of outcome they want for their pregnancy. so i do think, even though ivf is unfortunately not available, not accessible, not affordable
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to everybody who would like to use it to treat infertility, i do think that it commenced peoples attention in a way that has begun to happen with other things, and hadn't before roe v. wade was overturned. >> it is the absolute chaos of the post by dobbs decision,, really in evidence as we read headlines in the newspaper. thank you so much for your essential reporting on all of this, erin, it is great to have you on the show tonight. >> thank you. >> still to come this evening, the republican party in michigan it is in the middle of a meltdown. when all of the fighting, included reported fistfighting means for democratic hopes. that is up next.
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try downy free & gentle. >> there have been plenty of headlines in recent weeks announcing the democrats have a problem in the state of michigan when it comes to the 2024 election. while, yes, it is true that president biden has some real work ahead of him in that state, with the arab american voters, there is another side to the michigan story that has gone largely overlooked. for all the issues michigan democrats are facing, the michigan republican party appears to be collapsing in on itself. like a souffli. it started last year when michigan republicans chose kristina karamo to be the new head of the michigan state republican party. karen was a vocal election than i who had just lost the race
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for michigan state secretary of state and never conceded. connection? possibly so. but michigan republicans decided to put miss karami in charge of their party anyway. and then, they immediately started fighting about it. literally. that spring, not one, but two consecutive meetings of a michigan republican party broke into physical altercations. one of which involved testicle kicking, chair slamming, and a broken rib. after miss corona's first year as chair, the michigan republican party is in dire financial straits. that, in turn, has led to accusations that she has misused party funds. and so, in january, a faction of the party voted to oust miss karamo. they elected a new party chair. the only problem? is that christina karami is an election denier, election deniers do not admit defeat or concede power, that's the whole
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shtick. so, began the michigan republican party civil war. kristina karamo refused to accept that she was legitimately ousted. michigan republicans ended up with two competing official republican party websites, both declaring a different person to be the party's official chair. last week, the national republican party stepped in and officially recognized the new chair over kristina karamo. but christina karamo is still not admitting defeat. that is the crazy thing about election deniers. karami called a national republican party's endorsement of the new chair sabotage, and it's discriminatory. she called republicans who voted to oust her a quote impostor organization, fraudulently claiming to be the michigan republican party. it's not like she's been doing this from the sidelines either. according to an addition to the party social media account, kristina karamo reportedly still has control over the party's bank accounts, and
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assets. and now this is all about interfere with the republican primary in the state. to be clear, this was already going to be a confusing year in michigan politics because of some complicated calendar shenanigans, which i don't have time to get into right now, michigan is holding both a republican primary and the republican caucus convention this year. the primary set to take place on february 27th, and the caucus convention is set to take place four days later on march 2nd. now if you're wondering what is a caucus convention, you can think of it like the iowa caucus, instead of having caucus sites across the whole state, the whole thing will be held in one place. or at least that is how it was supposed to happen. because now the two factions of the michigan republican party are holding two separate caucus conventions in two separate cities. each one claiming to be the official republican caucus. so that means there will be one republican primary, and two
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republican caucus conventions this year. which is, i mean, hey, why not? it's not like michigan is going to be an important battleground state this year, republicans really need to have all their ducks in a row? wait a second -- obama white house and clinton campaign, joins me to discuss all of this coming up next. and what could possibly go wrong? ould possibly go wrong? until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back!
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and right now, you can get a free line of our most popular unlimited plan. all on the most reliable 5g network nationwide. ditch the other guys and you'll save hundreds. get a free line of unlimited intro for 1 year when you buy one unlimited line. and for a limited time, get the new samsung galaxy s24 on us. >> and you pull out today from the battleground state of michigan shows donald trump leading president biden by four points. but when that same poll asks voter how they would vote of donald trump or convicted of a crime before election day? well, the race is dead even. so trump trials do matter in this election, but there are a lot of other external factors that will determine this race in a state like michigan, whether it is biden support for the war in gaza and its effect on the states arab american community, or the absolute goat
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rodeo happening inside the states republican party. of the known unknowns here, which party has the advantage? joining me now is jennifer palmieri, former communications director for both the obama white house and hillary clinton's 2016 campaign. she is also the co-host of msnbc's how to win in 2024 podcast. jen, first of all, the saga, the comedy of errors, i will call it inside the michigan party, it's just -- you wouldn't believe it if someone told you that it was happening -- i mean it's not to be believed, i guess is the shorthand here. >> we covered this, you know, in 22, it was starting, when we read the circus, it was the craziness that had just started. >> i mean, my question to you is from an organizing standpoint, right? how much does it matter that the party apparatus in that state, which is a key state in 2024, is a symbol?
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what is the meaningful impact of that from just a campaign perspective? >> it matters. the democrats have gotten very good at winning the state of michigan. it's easier to vote in michigan right now. then stated early voting a few years ago. there's a few ways to do it, that means the organization is key. and, you know, it's not just demoralizing what is happening to the michigan republican party, the michigan republican gave us gerald ford and this is what it's come to. but it is organizing the state when they have options for voting is a big deal. that race is gonna be really close, the biden trump race, and, to lose your edge on organizing it is not a small matter. it's a big deal. >> what do you make of the loss of support that president biden
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has seen among the arab american community in michigan? i mean, i know that the biden white house is sort of changing its position, somewhat, or at least its posture as it pertains to israel, prime minister netanyahu and the war more broadly, but i wonder with 29,000 people dead in gaza, whether that damage can even begin to be undone? that bodies are not something that you can on message? >> right, everyone understands what the situation is. the white house understands what the situation is. globally and in terms of gaza and israel, and, you know, we know the steps that they are taking with the israeli government. we also understand the political impact in michigan. they've said that a lot of surrogates have gone into talk to arab communities in michigan, i know that they are recommending that people in the -- next tuesday, that people
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vote and committed as opposed to voting for biden. i don't know if people actually do that. that could give the biden team a sense of how bad the problem is. the president went to michigan, recently, they were bracing for protesters, it didn't really materialize, it is still uncertain -- when there is an existential threat in our own country how that might play out in michigan. people are concerned about gaza, but there are also concerned about america. like i said before, the margin of victory in michigan is going to be very close so it is a very legitimate concern to worry about what is going to happen in that state. >> it seems very clear that the white house believes that they have an issue with the border, there is a reporting that the president may pursue some hard lining on immigration policies, i wonder as a matter of policy, when it comes to neutralize the
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in shoe or increase its aliens when a lot of people believe that trump will handle the border issue by 20 points in every swing state compared to president biden. >> yes, i think that the way i would look at michigan for biden, it's another opportunity to show that you have confidence, that you are trying to solve problems and the republicans are not, right? trump is always going to have an advantage over biden in managing the border because immigration is his core issue. and even though he didn't manage the border well when he was president, it's his core issue. what biden can do is partly what tom did in long island, make it about republicans not wanting to solve problems. the president guns and executive action on the border, he is showing that i'm trying to get a legislation passed, but it didn't pass because

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